Cennyan
04-30-2008, 03:41 PM
What happens at midnight on the second day of Blades of Wrath's attempt on the most PITA encounter in Vanguard to date?
http://www.bowguild.org/images/Updates/Overland/0.1/fengretat1ov7.jpg
By the time we had recovered it was nearly 1 AM and we began to lose healers to late night attrition. Well, what the fuck we said, we have all day tomorrow to kick Fengrots ass. No biggie.
What happens the next day when, on the first attempt, Fengrot's mosquito buddies knock the tank under the world and of course Fengrot, being the party animal he is, decides to follow the tank down? Fengrot kills the tank, loses agro on the raid and starts walking south....way south....like...4 chunks south into the Sea of Mist till he hits the "Unknown Zone" area and disappears. I guess he thought he'd head to Tanvu for a lil late night snatch action.
OK, so the encounter is buggy. Blades is used to beta testing this bullshit on live servers. Of course, the encounter was supposedly checked out on test...Good job with that, we only found 6 major bugs and 2 exploits in the process of learning this encounter. Whatever, we'll wait an hour and he should respawn. Two hours later, no Fengrot, so we decide to petition.
Yet another what happens when....
What happens when some random_fucktard_newb_guild_01 on Xeth (http://www.vgdivinus.org/index.php)starts exploiting the encounter by "trapping" the mobs in the tower and within a few attempts has the same mob down to 17%? Well....logic tells you that the guild in question should be given a warning "hey stop doing that shit", told to leave and stay out of the zone and then the encounter fixed. Logic is not a pre-requisite for working at Sony however.
http://www.bowguild.org/images/Updates/Overland/0.1/feng4-29.jpg
So First, I want to thank that random_fucktard_newb_guild_01 (http://www.vgdivinus.org/index.php) for being a bunch of dickheads. Really...thanks guys. And don't worry Ceythos, we're not pissed at you, you're just the messenger.
One guild has beaten Fengrot twice. The first time they beat him he was actually pretty easy. So someone at Sony, in their infinite wisdom, decides "OMGZ, yet another encounter beaten too quickly...This was supposed to take them weeks figure out, not a day...Well screw that, I'll show them...I'll make him unbeatable." So the amount of adds is doubled, their hit points increased, yadda yadda yadda...whatever. And what you end up with is a mob that is a complete PITA. And yet...PITA or not....after a week of trying, BoTS beat him again. After finding out BoTS did in fact kill the un-killable, Blades went to work and within four days had the same PITA mob down to 1%.
We have tested raid mobs in the past, we have given detailed information on those encounters to devs, including any bugs or potential exploits we encountered. We did the same thing on live with Kotasoth and Dresla (Remember those PM's you got Silius?) Who knows...maybe Silius doesn't like me or perhaps I've bitched too much in the past. Maybe I'm too controversial to be associated with. All I know is that the mobs we tested in APW where the least bugged encounters in APW and the least likely to be exploited. And yet, we where never invited to test Kotasoth, Dresla and Fengrot. GG, they are the most bugged encounters I've seen in Vanguard since the Xenn power suits.
But don't worry...I'm not here to bitch...I'm here to help.
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2851/mheretohelpln0.jpg
1. Pay attention to what players are telling you (especially those of us with a clue)
2. Solicit feedback from the major players in the game on the encounters you design and RECIPRICATE THAT COMMUNICATION
3. Get the decision-makers to make the right decisions and hire more people who learn from their mistakes. Oh ya, don't forget to hire QC guys, cause apprently they had the day off when testing kota, Dresla and Fengrot
4. Get all your people together and discuss these bugs and issues
5. FIX THE DAMN BUGS THAT HAVE EXISTED IN THE GAME MECHANICS SINCE BETA. And I'm not just talking about monk / rog damage. I alone have presented at least three pages worth of coding and balance issues that have yet to be addressed or even acknowledged....intended right?
6. Do this in a timely manner. Timely doesn't mean 6 months from now.
7. Go back to the forums and tell the community what you're doing.
8. Rinse and Repeat until you get it right
Now let me explain something. When you put an "un-killable" mob in the game, players are going to find a way to kill it. In BoT's case and our case, we get very creative but we follow the general theme. In other cases, you will have guilds that excessively exploit using stacked buffs, bugged abilities, geometry, etc.. to beat the mob. That random_fucktard_guild I mentioned earlier...well ya, they're asshats and they suck. But, they did what the game allowed them to do. The blame falls squarely on them and the shoulders of those that design the underlying mechanics of the game and the content being exploited. Instead of doing it right, they punish everyone in the game by removing a mob. Instead of tuning the game, they retune the encounter until it's so hard that most guilds can't kill it without exploiting.
How many times have we told devs that when multiple mobs are involved in a raid encounter that at some point and in several different ways, those mobs can be exploited and negated? Akande is a prime example. Have a monk pull and kite akande till his dog spawns, then FD. The dog stays in place and Akande roams back to his pull spot at which point a group can engage and kill him without the add spawning. I've seen this a dozen times by - other (http://www.vgtrinity.org/home/index.php) - guilds (http://stormhaven.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=80803&TabID=696266) - in OT. And yet they still wipe to him. Meanwhile Blades comes up and lays down the Steamroller (http://steamroller.com/)and shows them how it's supposed to be done.
Dresla...hey, kite them over the hill instead of killing them. Akande, NP, FD the add off. Zaraax, easy shit bard kite from outside the raid. Prime Warden, total joke, three mobs...three raids. Get them stuck in the wall, kite them from outside the group / raid, throw an orgi and let the mobs eat grapes, there's dozens of ways to exploit this shit. Blades has killed everyone one of these mobs legitimately without exploits. Of course, none of these mobs where removed from the game. And yet every time a new mob is released that uses adds, they're exploitable and the wanna-be guilds are out their using them....designers are not learning from their past mistakes...they are building upon them...they are repeating them.
So ya, I'm pissed and rightly so. Our server first was stolen last night because the un-killable mob should remain un-killable. We skipped every raid this week working on Fengrot, and all we have to show for it is a 1% screenshot...If I make it to fanfare you can bet it will be a t-shirt by then. Well I can tell you this, when you release it again, you will see Blades and BoTS killing the shit so get used to it. And get used to my rants here if my guild continues to get fucked over the way we did last night.
http://www.bowguild.org/images/Updates/Overland/0.1/fengretat1ov7.jpg
By the time we had recovered it was nearly 1 AM and we began to lose healers to late night attrition. Well, what the fuck we said, we have all day tomorrow to kick Fengrots ass. No biggie.
What happens the next day when, on the first attempt, Fengrot's mosquito buddies knock the tank under the world and of course Fengrot, being the party animal he is, decides to follow the tank down? Fengrot kills the tank, loses agro on the raid and starts walking south....way south....like...4 chunks south into the Sea of Mist till he hits the "Unknown Zone" area and disappears. I guess he thought he'd head to Tanvu for a lil late night snatch action.
OK, so the encounter is buggy. Blades is used to beta testing this bullshit on live servers. Of course, the encounter was supposedly checked out on test...Good job with that, we only found 6 major bugs and 2 exploits in the process of learning this encounter. Whatever, we'll wait an hour and he should respawn. Two hours later, no Fengrot, so we decide to petition.
Yet another what happens when....
What happens when some random_fucktard_newb_guild_01 on Xeth (http://www.vgdivinus.org/index.php)starts exploiting the encounter by "trapping" the mobs in the tower and within a few attempts has the same mob down to 17%? Well....logic tells you that the guild in question should be given a warning "hey stop doing that shit", told to leave and stay out of the zone and then the encounter fixed. Logic is not a pre-requisite for working at Sony however.
http://www.bowguild.org/images/Updates/Overland/0.1/feng4-29.jpg
So First, I want to thank that random_fucktard_newb_guild_01 (http://www.vgdivinus.org/index.php) for being a bunch of dickheads. Really...thanks guys. And don't worry Ceythos, we're not pissed at you, you're just the messenger.
One guild has beaten Fengrot twice. The first time they beat him he was actually pretty easy. So someone at Sony, in their infinite wisdom, decides "OMGZ, yet another encounter beaten too quickly...This was supposed to take them weeks figure out, not a day...Well screw that, I'll show them...I'll make him unbeatable." So the amount of adds is doubled, their hit points increased, yadda yadda yadda...whatever. And what you end up with is a mob that is a complete PITA. And yet...PITA or not....after a week of trying, BoTS beat him again. After finding out BoTS did in fact kill the un-killable, Blades went to work and within four days had the same PITA mob down to 1%.
We have tested raid mobs in the past, we have given detailed information on those encounters to devs, including any bugs or potential exploits we encountered. We did the same thing on live with Kotasoth and Dresla (Remember those PM's you got Silius?) Who knows...maybe Silius doesn't like me or perhaps I've bitched too much in the past. Maybe I'm too controversial to be associated with. All I know is that the mobs we tested in APW where the least bugged encounters in APW and the least likely to be exploited. And yet, we where never invited to test Kotasoth, Dresla and Fengrot. GG, they are the most bugged encounters I've seen in Vanguard since the Xenn power suits.
But don't worry...I'm not here to bitch...I'm here to help.
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2851/mheretohelpln0.jpg
1. Pay attention to what players are telling you (especially those of us with a clue)
2. Solicit feedback from the major players in the game on the encounters you design and RECIPRICATE THAT COMMUNICATION
3. Get the decision-makers to make the right decisions and hire more people who learn from their mistakes. Oh ya, don't forget to hire QC guys, cause apprently they had the day off when testing kota, Dresla and Fengrot
4. Get all your people together and discuss these bugs and issues
5. FIX THE DAMN BUGS THAT HAVE EXISTED IN THE GAME MECHANICS SINCE BETA. And I'm not just talking about monk / rog damage. I alone have presented at least three pages worth of coding and balance issues that have yet to be addressed or even acknowledged....intended right?
6. Do this in a timely manner. Timely doesn't mean 6 months from now.
7. Go back to the forums and tell the community what you're doing.
8. Rinse and Repeat until you get it right
Now let me explain something. When you put an "un-killable" mob in the game, players are going to find a way to kill it. In BoT's case and our case, we get very creative but we follow the general theme. In other cases, you will have guilds that excessively exploit using stacked buffs, bugged abilities, geometry, etc.. to beat the mob. That random_fucktard_guild I mentioned earlier...well ya, they're asshats and they suck. But, they did what the game allowed them to do. The blame falls squarely on them and the shoulders of those that design the underlying mechanics of the game and the content being exploited. Instead of doing it right, they punish everyone in the game by removing a mob. Instead of tuning the game, they retune the encounter until it's so hard that most guilds can't kill it without exploiting.
How many times have we told devs that when multiple mobs are involved in a raid encounter that at some point and in several different ways, those mobs can be exploited and negated? Akande is a prime example. Have a monk pull and kite akande till his dog spawns, then FD. The dog stays in place and Akande roams back to his pull spot at which point a group can engage and kill him without the add spawning. I've seen this a dozen times by - other (http://www.vgtrinity.org/home/index.php) - guilds (http://stormhaven.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=80803&TabID=696266) - in OT. And yet they still wipe to him. Meanwhile Blades comes up and lays down the Steamroller (http://steamroller.com/)and shows them how it's supposed to be done.
Dresla...hey, kite them over the hill instead of killing them. Akande, NP, FD the add off. Zaraax, easy shit bard kite from outside the raid. Prime Warden, total joke, three mobs...three raids. Get them stuck in the wall, kite them from outside the group / raid, throw an orgi and let the mobs eat grapes, there's dozens of ways to exploit this shit. Blades has killed everyone one of these mobs legitimately without exploits. Of course, none of these mobs where removed from the game. And yet every time a new mob is released that uses adds, they're exploitable and the wanna-be guilds are out their using them....designers are not learning from their past mistakes...they are building upon them...they are repeating them.
So ya, I'm pissed and rightly so. Our server first was stolen last night because the un-killable mob should remain un-killable. We skipped every raid this week working on Fengrot, and all we have to show for it is a 1% screenshot...If I make it to fanfare you can bet it will be a t-shirt by then. Well I can tell you this, when you release it again, you will see Blades and BoTS killing the shit so get used to it. And get used to my rants here if my guild continues to get fucked over the way we did last night.