Greetings

[Khalayna]

We finally beat Shylosia last night and you guys were right.... its best done as one helluva a drinking game :p

My Congratulations on your progression thus far and expect to see more soon.

As many of you are aware, revamps for classes are now back in full swing. I have been maintaining contact with Nik, Fisdiben, and Kronous pretty regularly, but with the raiding schedules the way they are now its not easy sometimes to keep the communication open.

Changes to the tank classes can have serious impacts on any MMO, and Vanguard is no exception. I do not want to pretend that I know everything there is to know about all three tank styles. I am very familiar, but help is always appreciated.

Therefore, as these upcoming changes will effect all of us, I thought it wise if we can get on the same page and see what we can do to help the dev team orchestrate meaningful and worthwhile improvements.

Here are the basic topics that affect all three tank classes:

1. Tank Style balancing--- WAR DW, DK 2H, PAL S&B
2. Raid Scaling for abilities--- Force Taunts, Rescues, Group/Raid effects
3. Tank Raid Sets--- Similar yet different, how to find that balance

I would like to begin some dialog on these issues as they are in the midst of evaluation right now by Talisker and the other devs. The more that we can agree on revamps to be changed, the faster and more beneficial they will be implemented.

Our guilds have done most of the raid content now, so we have a pretty good idea what changes can best be made.

Please share any immediate ideas, concerns, or comments that will help.

[Nikantor]

Congrats on Beating Shylosia, I am sure the tanks would be more than happy to chat about whatever is on the menu.

[Khalayna]

Tank Balancing--- DPS, hate, blocking%, and parry

Scaling--what abilities should be group or raid and what abilities need to be modified for raiding.

Raid sets--- currently they are very unbalanced
Do we want the attributes and mods to be the same and just add DW or 2H or S&B skills to them or what?

[Myris]

i've posted most of my opinions on these subjects a few months ago on the vanguard forums and the dreadknight forums, since you appear to be alittle late to the discussion feel free to browse those forums, then get back to me on any concerns/questions

[Nikantor]

I think my Biggest beef right now Khalayna is how long it is taking them to get you any information regarding the Paladin revamp. No offense but its been too long for the only information to be "buffs will stick". Pretty much impossible to discuss balance without an idea where they are taking the paladin class in alot more specifics. Talisker needs to either get going with the process or share it with you a heck of alot more. I dislike that it seems that Warrior and DK changes are happening and paladin is parked in neutral.

[Socratic]

The Warrior changes were an increase in power followed by a nerf which put the abilities more in line with the other two tanks. As such I expect the DK and Pal revamps to follow the same pattern and begin a bit ambitious and end up relatively balanced.

My only concern overall is that with the mit cap reached so easily, the use of strikethrough, and the prevalent use of spell dmg in raiding, that the HP gap between tanks and non-tanks is far too small. I see it as a minor issue though.

As long as the three tank classes are somewhat equal in both dmg taken and hate generation, I will be satisfied. I am however skeptical as to whether that will be the case, or we will continue to see over-reactions rather than balanced revamps.

[Fisdiben]

and although cronous is a newb his name is spelt with a c not a k :)

[Khalayna]

True Nik, yet 2 weeks off for Christmas was definitely a well deserved rest for them.

However, its a lot more than that too.

Almost all the changes concerning the Pal class have been roughed out and we have our blueprint done.

Now Talisker and I are polishing the details and I am disclosing the actual pre-patch notes as they are written and given to me.

Perhaps the process seems long, but it is steadily making progress.

Socratic's concern ("As long as the three tank classes are somewhat equal in both dmg taken and hate generation, I will be satisfied.") is the same as my concern. The Warrior blueprint is already done-- now the other two tank classes have to vie with it. Yet you damn well know its not going to be the same, nor is any of the three going to have an overwhelming edge.

So its going to come down to what are you willing to trade off.

(Fisdiben: and here I thought he was a kool newb)

[Nikantor]

True Nik, yet 2 weeks off for Christmas was definitely a well deserved rest for them.

However, its a lot more than that too.

Almost all the changes concerning the Pal class have been roughed out and we have our blueprint done.

Now Talisker and I are polishing the details and I am disclosing the actual pre-patch notes as they are written and given to me.

Perhaps the process seems long, but it is steadily making progress.

Socratic's concern ("As long as the three tank classes are somewhat equal in both dmg taken and hate generation, I will be satisfied.") is the same as my concern. The Warrior blueprint is already done-- now the other two tank classes have to vie with it. Yet you damn well know its not going to be the same, nor is any of the three going to have an overwhelming edge.

So its going to come down to what are you willing to trade off.

(Fisdiben: and here I thought he was a kool newb)

Why wouldnt you go ahead and post the roughed out ideas and just say "these are a rough idea of what is coming changes are to be expected" so that the paladin community can see that and respond to it. You are doing the paladin community a disservice in my opinion keeping them largely in the dark. Unless Talisker told you not to say anything until he is ready.

[Socratic]

The Warrior blueprint is already done-- now the other two tank classes have to vie with it. Yet you damn well know its not going to be the same, nor is any of the three going to have an overwhelming edge.

So its going to come down to what are you willing to trade off.

What exactly does this mean? Currently the Warrior is the weakest in utility and strongest in aggro. I suspect that after the DK changes Warrior will be the weakest in utility, and second in aggro, and the DK will once again be first in both.

As I see it the Warrior doesn't have a lot to "trade off."

[Fisdiben]

Nik she has a thread titled upcoming changes going on the paladin's of telon site that shes been using to pass down info also I believe her intention of posting here was just an C.C. post for us.

[Nikantor]

Yea fis I read that thread thus i said we know "buffs will stick" but thats it.

[Khalayna]

The Suggestions thread on the Paly site is a boiler plate for most of the changes.

All of our skills and abilities are being evaluated, and as Talisker gives me concrete information to pass on I do. So you are not in the dark at all.

Talisker and I discuss an issue---I post those results and the pre-patch notes that he sends me for everyone's comments. There is nothing else to report or I would.

The process is not fast. Raive worked on the Warrior changes for over 4 months. Fortunately, it wont take that long due to the fact that the Warrior blueprint is laying the foundation for the other two tank classes.

Getting back to Socratics question. I am sure everyone must know by now that all three tank classes are not going to be EXACTLY the same.

The Warrior blueprint is done, the Paladin blueprint is almost done, and I suppose the DK blueprint is coming along.

As these blueprints are finalized, key decisions are about to be made. Thats what I am addressing. Higher dps/lower defense? Lower dps/higher defense?

[Grendel]

You will never be able to satisfy everyone with raid armour sets. I still propose that raid armour be along the same lines as the swamp armour sets. There are 3 sets and let the individual chose which pieces that they want.

The bottom line is that Knights will always whine and exaggerate. I agree with Socratic that currently warrior aggro is higher than the other tanks (not including exploits) on regular mobs. Paladins have the upper hand on undead mobs. After the DK changes, it seems they will once again be the highest aggro tank, BUT they will still whine and complain.

To me aggro is a moot point, but there are many ways to keep aggro on the MT and the difference in aggro between tanks isn't much of a factor.

[Nikantor]

This running joke about whiney knights got old about 3 weeks ago... NERF WARRIORS . GOD You Idiot (in best napolian dynamite voice)

[Socratic]

Higher dps / lower defensive? You do realize that this is a raiding guild correct? If any of the three tanks has "higher defensive" (whatever that really means), then balance doesn't exist. As a tank, in a raid guild, I want to tank raid mobs... lower defensive is not something I see as acceptable.

If as you claim, the Warrior changes set the framework for the other revamps, I expect to see DKs and Paladins get nothing substantial when it comes to raid tanking. We got a minor group aura, Pal already has, DK has DC. We got dps in defensive, which DK already had, and a Pal has as long as the raid has 1 Necro (cough broken mechanic). We got a short term block/mit buff, which the DK has, and Pal should get (one of the few things the Paladin should be given, along with a force taunt).

What else? Commands? Oh the joys of being macro dependent.

So yea... as long as the Pal and DK get nothing substantial with their revamps things should be fine. Except the DK gets 2h dmg, which will change the picture far more than the weak DK class lead lets on.

Balance and stability is what we want. I don't think I'm the only one who is quite sick of the "me me me" mentality we've seen so far. If you are overpowered, you are hurting this game. If you are trying to push your class ahead of the other 2 classes, you are an idiot. (By "you" I don't mean you Khal, just in general)

[Khalayna]

Right Soc, the Pal changes are not going to be substantial. Definitely a blocking% buff of 14% like the Warrior.

Force Taunt seems to be up in the air. The dev team is actually not happy with the current Force Taunt Immunity buff, but dont really see any other solution atm either. And its buggy as hell. Either Pal Shining Beacon will become Single Force Taunt, or one of our rescues will. Three Rescues under the new force taunt system is no longer necessary.

[Eadric]

... Three Rescues under the new force taunt system is no longer necessary.

Very true... I would also like to see the cleric rescue abilities given a different functionality since the force taunt mechanics have changed. It's a complete waste to have more than 1.